An interview with Rebecca Henderson on fatigue, burn out and purpose.

Summary

This transcript is a conversation between Troy and Rebecca, a professional mountain biker. They discuss Rebecca's experiences as a three-time Olympian and her journey in the sport, including the mental and emotional challenges she faced during competitions and throughout her career. The conversation covers topics such as dealing with stress, burnout, and the accumulation of life events (allostatic load), as well as the importance of having a sense of purpose. Rebecca shares her strategies for coping with the highs and lows of her career, including taking breaks, spending time with friends and family, and finding ways to mentally disconnect from the sport. The conversation also touches on the unique pressures and experiences of competing at the Olympic Games.

Chapters

Introduction and Background 

Troy introduces Rebecca, a three-time Olympian and professional mountain biker with an impressive athletic resume. He explains his interest in discussing the concept of 'allostatic load,' which refers to the accumulation of life stresses and events, and how it relates to Rebecca's experiences as a high-end athlete.

Early Career and Transition to Professional Racing 

Rebecca shares her experiences from her early career, including her first season racing in Europe as an amateur and the challenges of traveling and competing without support. She discusses the transition to joining a professional team and the relief of having responsibilities taken off her shoulders, such as travel logistics and equipment maintenance.

Dealing with Stress and Burnout 

The conversation delves into the mental and emotional challenges Rebecca faced throughout her career, particularly during the mid-season when energy levels and motivation tend to dip. They discuss strategies for coping with burnout, such as taking breaks, spending time with friends and family, and finding ways to mentally disconnect from the sport.

The Olympic Experience 

Rebecca shares her experiences at the Tokyo Olympics, where she struggled with negative thoughts and a sense of dread, despite being well-prepared physically. She discusses the mental anguish she experienced during the race and the difficulty of finishing when every part of her wanted to quit. The conversation also touches on the unique pressures and expectations surrounding the Olympic Games.

Self-Care and Recovery 

The conversation shifts to discussing self-care and recovery strategies for Rebecca as a high-end athlete. She highlights the importance of spending time with friends, getting massages (although sometimes she doesn't feel like it), and taking complete breaks from training during the off-season.

Action Items

1. Recognize the importance of having a sense of purpose in coping with stress and burnout, as it can provide motivation and help remove some of the mental and emotional load. 
2. Explore strategies for mentally disconnecting from the sport during breaks and off-seasons, such as spending time with friends and family, engaging in non-athletic activities, and taking complete breaks from training. 
3. Understand the unique pressures and expectations surrounding major events like the Olympic Games, and develop coping mechanisms to manage negative thoughts and mental anguish during high-stakes competitions. 
4. Implement self-care practices, such as getting massages, taking hot baths, or practicing yoga, while being mindful of not overdoing it and allowing for rest and recovery when needed. 
5. Reflect on the accumulation of life stresses and events (allostatic load) and how it can impact physical, mental, and emotional well-being, especially for high-end athletes who face additional pressures and demands. 

Transcript

Hello, everyone, and welcome to another podcast of the Sensory Approach to Manual Therapy. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. It's been so long. August? Well, I mean, we saw each other months in and in August, but then you still had a pretty big end of the season ahead of you. 

Yeah. Oh, that sums up so much of what I want to talk about today. That response. So I just want to give a little introduction of why I wanted to ask you some questions today specifically. So the old podcast that I used to do, you see these like 20 -minute snippets on anything that relates to the human body. 

So we did one on collagen. I did one on pain. I did some on skin and long -term potentiation, memory, all these kinds of things like that. But what I started doing the more I was teaching classes was I started coming across this term called allostatic load, and allostatic load refers to the accumulation of events and life stresses. 

And that's it. So it kind of encapsulates every aspect of your life. And then we have something called allostatic overload, which is the moment those stressors and life events become overwhelming. There's this biochemical process that occurs inside of our body that in athleticism in your industry, what you would traditionally say, this is called burnout. 

But we have psychological burnout. We can have emotional burnout, mental, spiritual burnout, and physical burnout. We can have all of them at the same time. Historically, people talk about them as separate terms, but really they're one unique subject that kind of all intermingle. 

So the reason I want to talk to you about it is because your sport and your past few years, not just your sport specifically, all high -end athletes have this concern, but the fact that you travel from Australia to Europe for half the year, the fact that you leave your friends and family behind for half the year, the fact that you then have the pandemic to travel through, the fact that the Olympics fall in the pandemic years, I mean, there's a lot going on. 

So that's one of the reasons why I want to talk to you. Sound good? So I'm just gonna, I'm gonna introduce the podcast and then I'm gonna let you introduce yourself. I'm gonna let you summarize your, oh yeah, I'm gonna let you summarize. 

Okay, I will introduce you then as well, but I'll let you summarize. Like I wrote in that message, I'll let you summarize the past three years of your life, uh, you know, you can head on the high points and low points, whatever you want. 

That's there's no pressure. You and I have known each other nigh on almost 12 years now. Yeah. Almost 10 years now, actually. So I, I, we can also keep it pretty relaxed and chill. Last time I did a podcast like this, I talked about pooping my pants. 

Okay. So, so we can be relaxed. So for my listeners, you don't know, uh, welcome to the sensory approach to manual therapy podcast. This is Rebecca McConnell or sorry, Rebecca Henderson, who I have known, I met in 2012 and why the fortune to work with for three seasons, uh, at track factory racing, and then I also had the fortune to work with, with team Australia. 

And, uh, honestly, she's become a dear friend of mine. And, um, she's had a unique. Search to the top of the mountain bike industry. She is a three -time Olympian, right? Three -time Olympian for Australia in mountain biking. 

She is formed world cup leader for mountain biking. She's multiple world cup winner. She's under 23 world cup leader and world series winner. She is multiple under 23 world cup winner. Um, she's Commonwealth gold. 

Oh, she, no, not gold. Okay. Oceana gold several times. Yeah, she's done a lot. She's got, she's got a good athletic resume there. And, uh, the fast past few years for mountain biking has been a unique time with the pandemic traveling and having to deal with a lot of the isolation and try to travel as a bubble. 

And so I really wanted to talk to you about really how you've cooked with some of these stresses and also for us to go over what some of those. stresses were for you. Yeah. I'm ready. So yeah, so why don't you tell me a little bit about so let's go back to I think it's 2000. 

Is it 2018 when you get third in Mont Saint Anne or 2019? 2019 you get third in Mont Saint Anne you and I working together you're there with Australia. It was a bit of a surprise, right? Yeah, for sure. 

I think actually that whole season was a bit of a surprise. The season before I just joined the team that I'm with now. And I'm like, prima floor Mondrian to Genuine. But yeah, so the I joined them in 2018 and actually didn't even listen out well and Um, yeah, actually I had stopped, I think after half a World Cup season and then yeah, came back in 2019 and at the second World Cup was super surprisingly back in the podium and then saw out the season with a bronze at the World Champs. 

So yeah, it was a big surprise. So at that race, sorry, I'm just writing my wife to tell the kids to be a little quieter when they run around upstairs. Sorry. Um, when you guys, when we were at, uh, Mont St. 

Anne and you suddenly were, find yourself in a podium position and then you found yourself with one lap to go, you found yourself leading the race and then you kind of hit a wall and started, I don't know if you went backwards, you went backwards two spaces. 

So it's not like you went back far, but within the space of one lap, time -wise it was a pretty significant change of pace. And so that would be an example of what we call allostatic overload where it's purely physical, meaning your body is given up. 

You don't have the fuel to match the energy demands that you're asking of it, but mentally, what happens to you when you find suddenly you're looking at your heart rate monitor, you're looking at your speed, you're looking at your cadence and you're realizing everything's changing in a way that you don't want. 

And you also have this thought process. Oh my God, I'm one lap away from winning my world, a world championship mentally. How do you keep yourself still even just peddling to get third place because physically you go through fatigue, but mentally and emotionally, where do you go? 

Yeah, that was, that was a crazy race for me, obviously because I was in a position that I was not expecting before the start. And yeah, I mean, I raced different to how I usually did. And normally I'm quite conservative and I just found myself in a good place. 

And yeah, I was in the front or race, whether it was second, third, first, but always in those first three positions. And for me, that was just like, wow, where am I? What am I doing? And so I was, you know, when you, when you're used to being in those positions, you're more calm and comfortable. 

And I think sometimes when it's your first, second, third time being in those positions, you, you can bring a little bit more than what you have inside because there's this extra level of motivation or just like almost this lack of presence because you just can't believe where you are. 

And yeah, so I just like, you know, I was passed by Pauline and then with half a lap to go, Yolanda went past me like I was standing still and you can see it on the, on the TV. It looks like I'm, I'm not moving, but you know, I, that's one race that I'll never forget that I gave every everything I had inside me. 

Like there's few times in your life you can give. everything that you have inside. But you know, I there was no mind games of I can't do this. So it was just like, you have to survive to the finish. You know, I think it's like when you want something so bad, you can just like, push your body to the limit. 

But you know, again, there's like so few times you can do that. But um, those kind of moments that yeah, they don't come around that often. So speaking of that, that makes me want to jump to this season. 

And yes, we're going to skip a couple years there of the pandemic. We'll get back to those. But the reason being is you just described this moment that's memorable. I mean, I was standing in the pit zone freaking out watching it on my phone. 

We were all pretty much losing mine. Because yes, it's not that it wasn't a possibility. We all knew, okay, she's got the potential to be on the podium during this event. But it wasn't exactly projected. 

And so it was definitely a euphoric moment for a lot of people. And we're all freaking out. And it's like you said, in the moment, you're not really thinking of much, you're just going to this place of give everything you have, this may be your only opportunity, give what you get. 

Fast forward to this past season that just finished. And you know, beginning the season for those who've never heard of mountain biking or paid attention, or don't know who my guest is, you know, out of out of nowhere, essentially, because yes, you were always a podium hopeful, and you've been a podium the previous season, but you hadn't won a World Cup yet. 

And come to the first race of the season, new subcontinent, we're in Brazil, boom, you come out, you win the first World Cup and absolutely for you, absolute excitement. And then we had to Alpstadt, you win the short track, you win the World Cup, we head to Lenovo Mesto, your podium, your podium, mid season hits, we start losing that ability to be number one in the race. 

So the question I have is, compared to when you're in Montserrat and you're getting third, where you're thinking the only thing you have is you give everything you get, you've got this euphoric almost sense to the way you're even describing it. 

Now you've hit several World Cup podiums as the world leader. You're wearing the word world leader jersey. You've won a few World Cups now, and now you're not able to give. Even if you are giving everything you have, you are finding that it's now more of a struggle. 

Does your mind do the same thing? Are you still just in this place of there's no internal dialogue, there's no internal conflict, let's just give everything you have. Go to Andorra where you're getting two flat tires. 

Do you suddenly find yourself having an internal dialogue? Yeah, I think you have a dialogue every race, I think. From the races in the early season where I was winning, it was a calm, calculated, like, just. 

structured, like, you know, I know what I'm doing, I'm fine, under pressure, no worries, like, or, you know, like, I was in those earlier races, I was able to, like, if I can just maintain this during this lab, next lab, but you know, I was very like, I could see the race for lap by lap, and I was everything was under control. 

And come those later races, I think, you know, the, the first world, you know, there was always going to, I won three World Cups in a row. So there's always going to be one World Cup where I wasn't going to win, right? 

This, there was kind of like winning streak was happening. And then I was like, well, you know, there's going, it doesn't matter if it's this one, it's going to come to an end. And the first one that it did was, you know, I knew I wasn't in shape or not, I was still in shape, I finished seven. 

But, you know, I was expecting a lesser result. And I was super motivated because my sensations were quite average, but my position was really good. So I was still, you know, like, I still had that very positive mindset. 

But yeah, like, as the season went, it was like, yeah, I got to Endora and had those two flat tires. And I think I was still wearing a World Cup leaders jersey and my motivation was super high. And I surprised myself with the positions I was riding in and my feelings were good. 

So it was still like a really positive, despite the race being a disaster and costing me, in the end, the entire World Cup series. Let's not dwell on that. We won't dwell on that. It was very much like, I've got the World Cup leaders jersey. 

And like, for me, that meant so much. And it was like, just get it done. Like, there was no dwelling on Oh, I got a flat tire, it was just keep moving, keep moving and like, and I still felt quite good. 

So even there at the midpoint, the mentality was still positive. It was like, there was no time to worry about the flat tires. It was just like, do what gets the best outcome. And so I pushed myself in that race similar to how I did in, you know, that Monson and World Champs and, um, but yeah, the season we, I think after that we, oh, we had a few more European World Cups and things just weren't going that well. 

And it started to, the racing, like we suffer so much in racing, but. And you guys had a longer season than normal. You had more races this year. Yeah. We had nine World Cups this year, more traveling. 

Um, and we started about a month earlier. Um, but yeah, and I, so come like that second half of the season, I started to take some hits and, you know, earlier I was able to take on these hits and it doesn't matter. 

I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. And I was really positive. And then. they kept coming and you know there's like when you feel good you suffer and you hurt a lot but it doesn't matter you can take it all but it became like oh I like the racing got harder and harder and you know because I just didn't you know when you when you can win a World Cup you feel on top of the world and that feeling was just escaping me and well it had escaped me and and like I'm fine with that I'm you know that's more than I ever dreamed of but it was just like it wasn't even the positions it's just I want these feelings back I want to feel like I can race my bike well or like have these positive feelings and it was just one thing after the other and you know I had a lot of personal problems that I think in the early season I was able to just like push them aside because I I got to Brazil and I won the World Cup and I was a World Cup leader and then I came to the next two World Cups and won and everybody was happy and Beck was amazing and so I think I just like all this other stuff just was kind of pushed to the side or pushed down or not really felt or totally addressed and I think all of those things started to combine together in the second half of the season and you know like physically I wasn't really in shape that much anymore so let's talk about that for a second because what happens like you know as most high -end athletes it's very difficult to stay at the winning peak every event all season long you know it's it's in any discipline it's rare to see a single athlete win every single event you know doesn't matter the sport only because everybody tapers at one point has to recover to climb back up to the top of the discipline again so in cycling we know in mountain biking at least, you know, a lot of people are going to have target events that they want to hit, that they want to win. 

So for you, you happen to come out, all guns firing, you're winning World Cups beginning of the season, you win three in a row, you win short tracks, you're wearing the leader's jersey. You know mentally, as you had stated several times on social media and in interviews and on Red Bull, that your energy levels mid -season were projected to be low. 

That was going to be your projected recovery time to try to peak again for Worlds. So your energy levels start dropping, which is completely normal and expected. But now that your energy levels start dropping, when I talked about allostatic load and the way we look at, you know, the biology of the brain and things like that, some of the things that we start seeing is that there's this real big interconnectedness between emotional, mental, and physical, let alone spiritual feel. 

So you physically feel strong, well then whether you emotionally, mentally, or spiritually fatigued. those will all rise up to replicate how you feel physically. So if you feel good, if you wake up feeling top of the world, a lot of the mental, emotional, and spiritual things tend to get pushed away and you feel emotionally strong, you feel mentally strong. 

Your physical self starts feeling bad, boom, you know, people start feeling, they start having replications of depression, they start having replications of lethargy, things like that. And vice versa, somebody going through a spiritual crisis, a mental crisis, an emotional trauma, their physical self starts feeling really low on the energy scale as well. 

So now we take into account, okay, you're a high -end athlete. Most high -end athletes are like 1% away from catastrophe or winning, right? So like you're either going to win or you're going to blow up and you're going to finish 60th, but like it's a percentage that makes you able to do that. 

And it's a very small percentage for the level of athletes who can do that. So physically your system starts going into slight dip for recovery purposes. Mentally, do you find that season by season, not just this year, yes, there's personal stuff going on as well, but I mean, that was, yes, this season, if you were looking on paper, people might go, this year was exceptionally hard with what you went through personally, but other people might say, you know, no, every year is hard. 

Like during the pandemic, that's a crisis that is incredibly difficult on the psyche. And so that could almost be quantifiably as intense as what you were going through. It just was a different year. 

And so as you go through this physical dip in recovery, do you find that year after year, that's also the time where mentally you start feeling like it's time for recovery and you don't get it because you do have to have another race or another event or another training cycle that even if you want to go and lay down, you still have to go do your intervals or something like that. 

Does the mental and emotional component line up with that? Yeah, for sure. I think, you know, for example, to be really at the top, everything has to come together. Like you need all the pieces of the puzzle to, you know, if you feel good. 

like, you know, normally you get there because everything's sort of supporting each other. Like you can't be, well you can, but if, you know, if you're not likely to be depressed, but in the shape of your life, it's just sort of like, you know, you've got to bring all those things together. 

And I think, you know, when I reflect now, it's like the middle of the season is quite commonly a pretty low point for me actually. But for the most part by the back end of the season, I'm able to pull myself together again, if that makes sense, which is, you know, I didn't really manage to do that this year. 

But yeah, I think for sure. And, you know, as soon as- Let's not be too hard. Your results near the end of the season started climbing back up again. Yeah. So on paper, you were, on paper at least, at the end of the season, you were climbing back up. 

I think, yeah, like, you know, it's hard to know if you're like looking for reasons or looking for excuses or- how it exactly works but you know like once you start to you know come down you start to feel things more you know oh and like you know for example for me a lot it was like oh maybe I didn't process this separation or you know like oh I'm really starting to miss home or you know like these other factors that you either were able to put aside come back or maybe you're looking for reasons to justify how you feel like it's you know it's a tricky one but for sure yeah I think as soon as one piece starts to fall away it really does affect the others and it's something that I'm always working reinforcing to my coach is that I need to be number one priority is that Beth's happy like I need to be happy and healthy mentally because it doesn't matter how perfect my training is if I'm not happy I'm not I'm not going anywhere so so you bring up exactly what I want to talk about next which is a question I have for you as a high -end athlete who I've known for a long time now but who I haven't had a lot of interactions with over the past couple years since I left the cycling scene and things like that and one of those is when you do start going into that lower point so there's annually for you as a high -end athlete based on your discipline there's likely going to be two low points first is going to be mid -season if that's your goal if you peek in the beginning in the end depending on your preference and then post -season once you go into full bone cave two weeks no bike kind of thing those are the two areas where your energy levels will taper and so with it usually mentally emotional and spiritual taper as well to climb out of those yes you can have a training schedule from your coach all these things like that you can you can eat comfort foods you can you know curl up and watch a movie whatever it is that for individual people but for you specifically when you want to climb out of that what is it mentally emotionally that you do to trigger okay it's time to climb out not physically because like you said physically you might have the energy to go do the interval trainings. 

It's, do you do it heavy hearted or do you layhearted? And then so mentally, what are some of the components that you use, that you've discovered on your own that you've taken, tried to learn from other humans where you're not even humans, but that you've tried to climb your own way out of that hole? 

Yeah, for sure. I think it's like, No, your dog is probably one of the things that you use a lot. He's a good yard dog. Sorry. I think like mid -season is one of the places where I don't think I've really perfected that yet, to be fair. 

You know, at the end of the season, you mentioned two -week break. This year I had a five -week break. That's five weeks without riding, without exercise, walking, leaning around the street. But... without exercising. 

Honestly, in that time I didn't miss my bike and I think I'm maybe less common than a lot of the other riders who might take two weeks or they'll take five weeks but they ride their bike three or four days in the week anyway. 

I'm really an on and off kind of person and when I take my time off I take my time off and this year I came home all right the bike's out you know and I just this is that's the time of year where I can be social, spend time with my friends, spend time with my family and I think I went two weeks without cooking dinner at home because I was just somewhere every night and you know it's just like being completely not an athlete for me is what you know helps me a lot and I you know my body does feel quite average after that and it does miss the exercise and the first day I went back was like oh the wind in my head I miss this but I need to miss it and that's enough to sort of fill me up for almost the whole season. 

That's post -season right post -season where you're taking this time off so you can say I miss it. Mid -season you can't afford to take that time off because if you take two weeks or five weeks but even two weeks off mid -season you're falling behind your training by you know almost a month and a half and so mid -season when mentally you want to take that break you know I'm so tired of this especially when it's rainy or it's not nice weather how do you what tools do you use to bring yourself back to no I'm doing beyond determination because self -determination is something that any athlete is going to have that you know it's a trained attribute any human can learn self -determination it's about repetition of using it things like that not everybody cares to make it a priority myself would be a great example of that I love being athletic, but I would not say high -end athlete in any way, shape or form. 

And so, when it comes to not just the ability to be self -determined, I'm going out whether I want to or not, but when it comes to the ability to, I'm going to go out, but I'm going to enjoy it mid -season where you haven't had that mental break. 

What do you find? Is it going and having a coffee with your friends in the Alps or in the Pyrenees or wherever you're training in Spain? Or is it more time alone? Is it the recovery? Is it getting treatment? 

Is it getting speaking to therapists? Is it journaling reading? Where do you find that ability to mentally reconnect with your passion? Big question. Well, I feel like the dip in the middle of the season is so different to the one at the end, for example. 

I would say mid -season, you get to that hole nearly because you're motivated. You know, I think in a way, you can only drive yourself to that level, into that whole because you've worked so hard because you're so motivated. 

You know, you've just exhausted yourself. But I mean, like in the middle of the season, you're not like completely exhausted. And I think that was my problem, for example, this year is like, I didn't take quite as much rest as I usually would in these just little pockets of rest, like along the season that, you know, new coach, lots of variables this year, carrying the leaders jersey did really impact our schedule for the year. 

And, you know, like, and your media presence and your time alone. And yeah, yeah, I mean, a lot of factors. But um, yeah, I think like to, I still did take little bits of time walking in the mountain or and you know, my mom came to visit, but there's, you know, that's something that's a huge challenge for me is to get that escape from from being on. 

Because even if I have days off my bike, I'm in Spain and generally alone, it's like, well, it's not that much for me to do here. Because you still haven't learned your Spanish, right? And let's talk about that. 

But you know, and even the people that I see me are all from the bike industry. So it's not like, I don't ever really get that switch off, even just for a few days, like. And so that's something that, as I said, I haven't obviously perfected that. 

And do you find that like, when you're with other people in the bike industry, that let's say you're not riding bike, you guys are being completely social, you're not in your shammies, you know, it's not training time, you're just completely social. 

Do you find the conversation still always comes back to cycling since that's your guys's passion. And that doesn't give you the opportunity to really step away from the sport. Whereas like in the off season, yeah, you might talk about cycling with some of your friends, but some of your friends probably want to talk paint, or dogs or, you know, the stupid magpies, you know, whatever it is. 

Do you find that doesn't give you the opportunity to step away because your social network in the season is also the network of people who are going to be around you during competition? Yeah, it, I mean, it depends who you're with. 

Obviously, like, it's something that you have in common. It's a natural topic to gravitate towards. But I mean, I have definitely got a few good key people who we don't have to talk about bikes at all. 

And it's amazing. But yeah, I mean, it's, it is a topic that especially in the season and you know, like, even if I'm trying to switch off, it's still like, maybe I was pitching off, but I'm still trying to be mindful of distant the other and so it's just impossible to in the level that I would like to be totally off. 

But you know, at the same time, it's there. Those people that are with me in that half of the year also really understand me as far as like what I'm going through in that time of the year, whereas I find actually a lot of my friends in Oz don't really know. 

They support me. They love me. They they know what I'm doing, but they don't really, really, really know what's going on if that makes sense. And yeah, if you're not in the world, you don't understand the daily stresses. 

You you you don't really get how hard it is to do what you do. Yeah, and I think also for me coming home and people not really knowing is so fine. And I just come back and live my life here too, just like that. 

So then that brings me to the next part of this that I want to ask you about, which is let's go back to 2012. Okay, so before you sign with Trek Factory, you we just did the London Games, you and I meet in Austria for the first time. 

Your next season is going to be the Trek Factory racing, you're going to be U23. You're still in the under 23 category, and your success is quite high, you do very well that you win your first race out, you win several of the rate, most of the races throughout the season, you podium almost there, I think every single race, I can't really remember, it's been a long time, and you win the overall jersey. 

A lot of time in the US, a lot of time in Europe, very little time in Australia, although we do have two events there. So you get a little bit of time at home. The level of stress that you were living with at that age, right, comparatively to where you are now, 10 years later, now it's not the under 23 jersey you're wearing, it's the world elite leaders jersey that you're wearing. 

The level of stress Would you say that year after year, it accumulatively became greater? Because the level of stress that you dealt with this year, post -pandemic, like you mentioned, separation, world leaders jersey, world cup podiums, different team from when you and I used to know each other, you're with Mondraker now. 

That accumulation, if I were to look at the two comparatively, it looks visually like on paper at least, that the stress level you're dealing with now was higher than when we were at the end of 23 category together. 

If you were to take that stress level from you two, three to today and go, this is the difference, you know, it would almost seem insurmountable. So to be able to cope with that increase of stress year after year after year, do you find it was accumulative or do you find that really, it was just one day it was always the same and then the next day it was higher and you just had to suddenly deal with it, like going under 23, to elite or switching teams or that year in between where you go independent, things like that. 

Do you find that there was a gradual increase in that stress or was it sudden? I was definitely very gradual I would say to the point like you can go two years before that was my first season racing in Europe and Dan and I went and did it alone unsupported and I'd been to Europe for a world chance with the Aussie team but never traveled alone and it was like whoa you know so I'd been exposed from when I was 18 to just traveling and you know doing the best you can but no idea how completely amateur you were doing it but you're doing the best you can and with with what you know that's like I'm doing a good job and and slowly but surely you learn you get more experience and like you know over all those years it's just been this really steady progression then you join a team yes there's more pressure and people are looking at you and you've got like real sponsors that you have obligations to and then you get a salary but a lot of the stresses for me were taken away I was no longer responsible for for most of my travel logistics I wasn't responsible for my equipment even my like you know I the first time I joined the team I'm asked the mechanic hey where's the bucket I need to wash my bike and he just laughed at me like you know it was this this new world of like professional racing and so there were some increase in stress but so much was so much responsibility was taken away from me so like joining a professional team was a huge step for me um and then yeah I mean now I this season I was living in Spain alone I'm driving everywhere alone um but you know I've got so much experience now that for me like those are not difficult things to do. 

You know, I think a new experience for me was like coming to each World Cup with everybody talking a lot of gossips about me. And you know, like for me, that was, you know, it's, it's personal. But yeah, that was like, you must love that. 

Yeah, as you know, I'm not really a person who likes to be a lot of attention. And definitely he's not a girl who likes to gossip. So for me, that was, you know, that's like, probably one of was one of the biggest challenges for me. 

You know, just like, you know, it's like, those first three World Cups were, it was kind of back, back, back. And for me, that was something pretty not back, back, back related to winning back, back, back related to offseason drama. 

But just everything, just all the commands, I think one wouldn't have come without the other. It was just like, there was so much talk about, right. And, um, You know, so for me, I think that actually really kind of took its toll. 

I'm so used to flying under the radar. And that's how I like it. I just quietly go about my business doing my thing. And so it was, it's sort of those things. I'm very good at just getting down and doing my thing. 

And like, I'm not afraid of hard work or challenges or, but yeah, it's like, that was a really new experience for me. And so you described something that is, well, we'll see over the next couple of years with you, but it's something that is likely, hopefully going to happen for you, which is, you know, as we have a constant stress in the beginning, that stress represents a large portion of our caloric load, the amount of calories our brain uses to manage said stress. 

But as that stress becomes habitual and repeatable, but mostly, predicted, so I can predict that I will have this level of stress, the easier it becomes to manage. So that allostatic load and overload at the beginning, World Cup winner, separation drama, you know, Rebecca at the center of rumors, that becomes what we call allostatic overload. 

And then as each one of those components stay in your life for a longer period of time, they just become part of your stress. And so then you learn to deal with them. And in the process, they no longer overwhelm the system. 

And so the hope for the future could only be that you'll just be at the podium, World Cup leaders jerseys so frequently that that's not the stress, the stress is not wearing it. That is one of the hopes, right? 

But it's one of those things where it's that habit when it becomes predicted is when it no longer becomes something that is stressful to your system. And I bring that up because the physical forces you guys apply to your bodies are significant. 

So any any high end sport is going to have a large amount of you use on the body but cycling mountain biking is particularly aggressive. It's mainly interval training for know, an hour and 16 to an hour and 30 minutes. 

It's really high pace. That's, you know, zone five the whole time. And so that physical stress now, when it becomes the predicted, I know exactly how it's going to be, it almost becomes second nature. 

And so the question is, is over the course of years for you, compared to, let's say, first year under 23, where suddenly you're exposed to the most high end efforts you've ever done to where we are now, you know, 10 years later, are you like, yeah, it's hard, I know it's going to be hard race, it's obviously going to be one of the hardest things I do. 

But it's also not so hard that it's scary anymore. Whereas for a lot of people, if they look at that, they might go, no, it's just this is a scary amount of effort that they'd have to put into success. 

Well, I think it's like, I mean, it's the same, like, when I was traveling, it was like, in the beginning, it was like, five months, six months, whoa, now it's like, that's what I do. And it's the same with the racing, like we've been racing since we were kids. 

We always like go out and suffer suffer suffer and give everything we've got and like you don't think anything of it and you know racing is always hard like but I mean when you're younger it gets harder, maybe you take it easy for a little bit and like when you Get to really the highest level like you can't You I mean you always have to it's 90 minutes. 

There's no it's not possible to be at 100 for 90 minutes You have to manage that effort to finish having given everything 100 Um, but I mean that's one of those things that it's a really you have to be As I said, you can only really really give everything such few times I believe um and like a lot of that for the race is like You have to face it like this is gonna hurt like and you have to know when you're warming up when you're preparing like This is gonna hurt. 

You can't be I'm used to this like if you're suffering at a what's comfortable amount of level you're not going You're not racing like you know what I mean? Well, you're racing but you're not racing to where you should be I mean You're racing to finish the race but not win the race or for a good position, but if you know what I mean like You say that we're so used to putting ourselves through that but I think you know like You probably go to 80 -90 percent of the races and you give a lot but you Can't give really everything if you know what I mean like when i'm racing, you know, of course I suffer But I don't suffer like I suffered at monsoon and world champs like You know and you have to be yeah like there's for me. 

It's like I have to really know that This one's coming and i'm ready and I want to suffer Um, and you have to want to like you can't push yourself like that without really really wanting to So speaking of wanting to suffer Let's move to Tokyo games. 

So you hit several podiums that year. I think at the time you were seventh or sixth in the world. Wait. I think my world ranking was two or three at that time. Was two or three at the time? Okay. You would know better than I did because it's been more for longer for me. 

So you're second or third in the world. You're coming into the Tokyo games. Obviously a medal hopeful. Not necessarily gold, but definitely a medal contender. You're ready to suffer. What happens? Tell us about that. 

Yeah, that's, it's Olympics is such a, such a funny one. You know, I haven't had my first Olympics as London 2012 was just a total privilege to be there. Achieving this election was a dream. I'm Camrejo. 

I. achieve the selection like I had to achieve the new country has to earn a place. And you know, it was a process. And I sort of could fill the boxes and done. There was no one from I was really threatening to take the spot. 

Tokyo, I'd come off to bronze medals at the world champs. You know, there was no am I going am I not going it was like just prepare as best as possible. And yeah, I had pretty like, hard experience in Rio. 

And you know, it really hurt me emotionally. So I think I put my walls up for the Olympics a bit and was like, no, I'm going with a wholesome approach to the season. Of course, the Olympics is coming. 

But no, I'm going to focus on like, doing just a good season overall. And I think, you know, I was a bit cold towards the Olympics, because I was probably afraid to get hurt. Like I, I wasn't, I still trained. 

Well, I prepared well, everything the best of my ability, like always, but there was something inside me that I was like, it was like I was expecting to get hurt. I was, you know, like, of course, you don't tell these things or thinking at the time, but in hindsight, I think I was like, this is like, I'm gonna get my heartbroken again. 

And I was afraid of that. Or say, I don't know how to explain. Yeah, we call it predictive, we'd call it predictive text, which is, some people would call it manifest ethnicities, self fulfilling prophecy, whatever you want. 

But in memory and in neuroplasticity, we call it predictive text, where we can predict a certain behavior to happen based off experience and exposure. So from your previous experience in exposure, and productive predictive texts occurs, not only through repetition of behavior, but also the intensity of the experience. 

So like, sometimes predictive text will happen if you do a mild experience so frequently that it becomes permanent. Other times it'll be a one -time exposure bit by a snake, but it's so traumatic that every snake you think, I'm going to get bit by a snake. 

So you predict a bite. So that single experience, so real being, so heartbreaking creates this predictive text where around, because it's not around a one -day event because you do well with the two previous one -day events, the World Champs, you're getting bronze at both of these events. 

And then you're doing well at the long season events. So it's not around, oh, I can't handle the stress of one day, which some athletes have a really, it's like test, bad test takers. So we know it's not that. 

So it's interesting that you're saying that you might have almost expected to be hurt. And so for whatever reason, a scenario arises mentally, psychologically, emotionally, physically, or spiritually, where that predictive text gets proven right. 

Yeah, for sure. I think like, yeah, it was such a strange one, because we hadn't been, we were unable to race, there was, you know, COVID was kind of almost behind us, but then at the Olympics it wasn't. 

And I was thrown again into like, a lot of different factors. The team was all in Spain, new stuff from Oz, like, average support. But these are all things that normally I can adapt to, right? And again, this is like, when you're on top, it doesn't matter. 

When you're just not quiet yourself, those things start to matter. And, you know, like, I wasn't my best self, like, happiness wise. And, you know, I was there, wow, like, you know, I was motivated, but I think, you know, I can look back and I was just a bit off. 

And, you know, I went to the race, like, prepared the best I could, like always, but yeah, it was, my training laps were probably the race I did in Tokyo a couple of weeks ago, having had five weeks off, I think I was probably racing faster, you know, I was just like, the lights are on, but nobody was home. 

And I was just like, it was the most, one of the most painful experiences because everybody's watching and you're giving a dismal performance. And it's like, you can't hide, you can't pull it out. You can't, you have to just. 

And you don't get to redeem yourself potentially, right? Like, it's a once in every four years. And how often, you know, like you've gone to three, that's amazing. You will possibly in all likelihood, likely go to four, barring some, you know, really unfortunate change, you will likely go to four. 

So you have a chance for redemption if you choose to think of it that way. But for a lot of people, it's like you go and you're like, man, I'm not giving the performance I want. And I don't know if I'll ever get to try to give it again. 

Yeah, for sure. I mean, for me, it wasn't like so much, like redemption is not really a thing for me, but it's like, that one like people in the scene watch World Cups but it's like there's people ask you if you went to the Olympics did you get a medal no oh like what happened kind of thing like that's I competed against somebody who did um you know it's like just there's a lot of actual negativity from me around the Olympics in that respect and yeah I mean it's just like that it was a fail and I mean I failed a lot of times I don't I'm not that doesn't bother me but I think it's that it's that one that you're not almost not permitted to forget how many times I failed in a World Cup and nobody remembers that specific World Cup or it's never but you know it's something that's constantly you're reminded of again and again and again and I think um you know is that one that you get reminded of by people outside of the mountain bike community more frequently yeah specifically because you've got the Olympic rings they go oh this is Outside of that, they would never have even noticed that there was a lack of a missed opportunity. 

Yeah, for sure. It's, yeah, and you're like, you know, you've made your choker or whatever, like, but you know, for me, that 90 minutes was just awful because it's like my family, they're, they've all like, everybody makes extra effort to see that race, to support that race. 

And like, there's Olympics brings hope or anything's, anything's possible at the Olympics, you know, and like, it brings this extra energy and a little bit of magic for, for you and for the people around you. 

And I think it's just like, ah. So let's go back to the beginning of the conversation where you say in Moen Saint Anne, you know, you're riding this high, and your mind is a blank. You know, you're calculating your pace and you're trying to do your best, but you're not exactly going through mental anguish. 

Now, fast forward to the Olympics, and it sounds like you're describing there is mental anguish during the 90 minutes now. It's one of the hardest 90 minutes, so it's not only hard physically, which again, you trained for, it's not like your body chose a day to turn off. 

You know, and that we know of you didn't have a sickness, right? Like you weren't fighting anything that we know of. So it's not like suddenly your body's wasting calories by fighting an inflammation or a bacteria of some kind. 

So what's the mental anguish going through, whereas if in the previous one, you're like, I'm feeling great, the mind's almost empty, all of a sudden now it's anguish. Is that what you find consumes your, your calories and your energy? 

Yeah, I think like you've pretty much, yeah, got it there. Like the physical suffering we can do. It's not, it's hard, but we're good at that. And like, even that emotional suffering, come on, give more, give more. 

Like that or tricking ourselves that it's not that far, you know, they're tough to say like those things. that's what we are good at. But when things are not going well, we're still not bad, but when things are just a disaster, it's like, you know, a 90 minute race feels a long time when you're going well. 

It's an eternity in that case of the Olympics. I was out there for five hours, like, and you come through, like, you know, when you're upbeat and things are good, you see three or four laps to go, okay, cool, take a gel, like, calm. 

And then, like, you know, for me, I would, I would barely make it up the climb coming to the finish line. And it was, oh, four laps to go. Like, is this even possible? Like, you're hoping for a flat tire, I imagine at that point. 

It's just like, how am I going to drag myself around? Like, I'm still, I suffered, like, physically, a lot, like, I was giving my best on the climbs, but it was like. I had concrete in my tires and I just couldn't like, it was just, you know, I was descending slow. 

I was like, I was just not myself. And you have a lot of negative thoughts in that time. And just like, for me, a lot was just like, get through this, like, just make it to the end and like, trying to find a way to make it to the end because that's the only option. 

There is no, you know, like any other race with such a performance, like, you know, I don't pull out under very few, yeah, very few. So let's, let's, I'm sorry. I think that's probably like in a usual race when, you know, it's something that probably, you know, the team would have been like back for, like, what are you doing? 

But you know, it's not good for you. If there's a point where it's not good for you, but that's one race where it doesn't matter. Like, you owe it. I don't know who you owe it to, because I also don't believe you really owe anyone. 

Because you're the one who put in the effort. Yeah. But you do, you just, you have to, you owe it to yourself. You just have to, I don't know why it's anything, because to me, finishing is not an achievement, but it's the minimum. 

And yeah, it was very painful and hard to do. So going to what you just said about, you know, there are a lot of races where sometimes you have negative thoughts, but in this specific event, it was hard. 

So let's move away from Tokyo now, because in that event, you have negative thoughts and you're not able to move out of them. You finish the race and you still have this, you know, downer moment. Other events that you've been in, you've had, let's say, so, so far in world championships, you haven't had negative thoughts. 

It was a great race. This season, you have highs and lows and ups and downs. In the events where you are doing a race and mentally, you find yourself going, Oh my God, this is not just suffering anymore. 

This is, I've hit a wall or some, some version of, I really wish this was already over. beyond suffrage. During the event, what do you do that makes you not pull out? Is it stubbornness, pride, arrogance, self -control, self -determination, willpower? 

Is it talking yourself off a ledge? What is it? What tools do you find yourself using that make you go, I'm not pulling out? When every aspect of you, every cell in your body is saying, back, pull the fuck out. 

It's time to be done. And mentally your brain is like, yeah, back, let's go. Emotionally, like I've checked out. What is it that makes you go, no, I'm not. Do you have a trick? Do you have a tool or is it just you don't know what it is necessarily? 

Um, I would say, fortunately for me, I wasn't never in that situation with you. the responsibility, the burden, the privilege, whatever, of carrying the leader's jersey and being in the overall, whether I, in the later season, whether I was wearing it, whether I wasn't was absolutely not an option. 

Like for me, always every race was, it doesn't matter how bad it is, finishing the best possible position is the only option. And if you're in 60s, you fight to be 59s, it doesn't matter. So I was lucky, I had some really hard days this year where I wanted nothing more than for some of the races to be over, but I had so much purpose. 

And I think that purpose was really vital for me this year. You know, so pulling out was just not an option because I had the big picture of the World Cup overall to fight for. And so there was always something behind that race, but you know, if you're in a World Cup and you're not in the overall, you skipped a couple. 

Yeah, that's, there's some races where for sure I would have been looking for an exit, like, you know, I think you hung on to an incredibly important word that really, as an athlete, you guys are almost a little more fortunate than just people who aren't necessarily athletes in that you have a purpose for you guys. 

It's a very clear cut with the purposes. It's a race, it's a victory, like there's a purpose, right? If you're on a soccer team, it's winning. If you're a tennis player, it's winning, like winning is the purpose. 

And once you are winning, it's maintaining the lead, there's a purpose. For people who aren't necessarily doing that, you know, outside of athleticism, it's interesting because in a lot of conversations around burnout, you know, work burnout, especially during the pandemic, like first aid responders and things like that, here in Quebec as well, burnout, you know, like globally burnout is a big problem in the first aid response post -pandemic. 

And it's one of those things where a lot of people who haven't felt the burnout, one of the things that I think is really interesting is that there's a lot of people who they often describe if you know I have a friend who runs a podcast who focuses a lot on burnout and first aid workers and oftentimes one of the things we hear described and talked about is a sense of purpose. 

When we have a sense of purpose that sense of being mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually burnt out or exhausted or allostatic overload however we describe it tends to be easier to one get over or too hard to even get to because the purpose is something it's goal -driven and so that makes it a very interesting aspect because for you guys you have so many set goals okay these are my high peaks during the season these are the races I'm going to aim to win this is the overall jersey I'm winning or rainbow jersey whatever it is and so that sense of purpose and it is really different so I think that's really cool. 

So then move that the last part of the conversation which I want to ask you which is self -care recovery things like that not just There's the mental, emotional, spiritual aspect, which, you know, we've kind of brushed on a little bit on what do you do and, you know, friends that you hang out with trying to, you know, your mom came this year to see you. 

It was really great to see her on the TV, things like that. Um, what is it that you find yourself doing? Just, I mean, you're in Spain, you're on your own, uh, out, you know, when you're with your team, it's a little different. 

Yes, there's the added pressure of, okay, the end of the week is going to culminate in a race. I've got my mechanics, taking care of my bikes. I've got my manager taking care of my schedule and I've got my therapist taking care of my body. 

You're taking care of your food. You know, like there's this whole mixture of stuff, but it's kind of a little circus that runs in a well, you know, well -oiled machine. Move away from that. What are you doing for self -care? 

Uh, what are you doing? Not only, uh, mental, which is an important one, but also emotional and also physical self -care here. We've talked about training a lot, but what are you doing that finds recovery where you are bringing stuff back into your system? 

Yeah, I think, um, probably not enough. Um, for me, I will point out that I will point out to my listeners who are mainly massage therapists, that you are a trained massage therapist. And if that doesn't come up in this sentence, they will be sad. 

It's okay. If it doesn't, I would rather you be honest because I know you, but they will be sad. What? If self -care does not include massage therapy. Yeah, I think like my biggest self -care is a coffee with friends. 

Um, that's what I need. And every World Cup, I make an effort to see a couple of friends just to spend some time together. I think, you know, um, yes, Matt, but massage is part of my daily routine at a World Cup. 

Um, and you know, in, I love massage. I love massage. You don't have to suck up to my listeners. No, no, no, I'm not sucking up. I, for me, it's... I mean, you did finish massage school. I believe you. 

Yeah, yeah. In the beginning of the season, oh, it's amazing. But honestly, by the end, it was like... I don't know if I feel like a massage. Like, I, you know, I go once a week now. And that's like, it's such a treat. 

But sometimes, like, in a race where you're like, you know, I don't want to massage today. Like, whether it's because I can't be bothered or like... It's not... It's no longer a treat. And, you know, it's... 

So I think, like... Yeah, I mean, physically, like, where... There's not that much else to do. I mean, I'm for sure there is, but... Um... Some people do yoga, some people take hot baths, some people walk in, but honestly, none of that, I don't care if you do any of those. 

It's interesting though that you say some days you don't want a massage because one of the things that I teach in my classes with the sensory approach is less is more. And it's really, sometimes people want a massage and it feels good. 

And then after 20 new minutes of getting a massage, it doesn't feel good anymore. It's kind of like, stop touching me, what was that? That doesn't happen to me. But for some people, it's like, stop touching me. 

And so like you described some, you described earlier, like near the end of the season, sometimes like, I don't really want a massage today. And it's just interesting because sometimes that level of stimulus, even though it's a positive influence, right? 

It is theory, it's a positive, we're trying to recover. It's still so much that it fills up that allostatic load where you're like, man, it's kind of not worth it today. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like early season, I look forward to it. 

And then like, it's like, I mean, it's not a hard thing to do. You go there, you take your pants off and you get a massage and suddenly it feels like another chore. And another responsibility. Yeah, for sure. 

Yeah, imagine how the therapist feels. See, it's funny, that's how I feel about working out. Oh, it's another responsibility. I gotta go to my bike again. That's awesome. Well, hey, we've already gone over what I promised you we would do, which was only 60 minutes. 

So I just want to say thanks. So appreciative to reconnect with you back. I mean, I've known you so long now. You've become a dear friend of mine. And it was great to see you at One State And This Year. 

It really was. I mean, I can't believe we sat in silence for almost a half hour, hadn't seen each other in four years, but it was amazing or three years, but it was wonderful. It was amazing to win. It was such a cool experience for me. 

Right, like post, it was a really cool experience. And I just want to say thank you so much for being here. I hope this gets some of my followers interested in following you at least because you've been a big part of my professional career and my personal career as well. 

So I just want to say it's great. Thank you for making the effort. I'm really hoping that this will turn into a series of episodes where I get to interview high -end athletes more frequently because I want to ask them these exact questions that you kind of went over about yourself today, which is during an event, how do you manage stress? 

And after an event, how do you manage stress? And also after the highs and lows, how do you manage it? And when the season's over, how do you manage it? Because most humans who go through some version of burnout or depression or fatigue, they're dealing with it from this cumulative effect where you guys are doing the same thing, but because you are purpose -driven. 

it tends to remove some of that load. And that's a really cool thing that you pointed out that I think I'm really gonna hang on to, that purpose -driven thing, because that makes a big difference on being motivated to keep going and removing yourself from that burnout and digging your way out of that hole. 

Or into it. Or into it. Yeah, let's hope that's not the goal, right? Purpose -driven to the point of, again, but again, it's like, if, yeah, if you end up doing something so much, you're so motivated to do it that it just takes away from all the joy, then it's no longer purpose -driven. 

Now it's just a chore. Awesome. Well, I hope you have a great day today. Thanks so much, Beck. Thanks for waking up early to do this with me. I think I'm early. We started at nine. Yeah, but you're in your off -season. 

You're in your off -season. And, well, I will reach out to you again later this winter just to say hi again, because I love hanging out and talking with you, Beck. Awesome. Thank you, Troy. Thanks so much. 

Bye. Bye. There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious. Makes you so sick at heart that you can't take part. You can't even passively take part. And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. 

And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine won't be prevented from working at all.